Athens, 20 July 2007

Mr. V. Paikos: We will now talk with Foreign Minister Ms. Dora Bakoyannis. Madam Minister, welcome. Elections are to be held the day after tomorrow in Turkey. We are awaiting them with anxiety, with hope, what exactly?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: With interest, Mr. Paikos. Domestic developments in Turkey, as you realise, are very important to us. The Foreign Ministry is monitoring them very closely. We hope that the outcome will be stability and democracy in Turkey, i.e., for elections to be held in a climate of tranquillity and normality; this is very important because, as you know, it is a country that is tormented by terrorism problems…

Mr. V. Paikos: And for normality to reign following the elections as well…

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: It is in Greece’s interest for there to be a stable democratic government in Turkey – that is, the one chosen of course by the Turkish people, we have no say in expressing an interest…

Mr. V. Paikos: Not even expressing our preference?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Not even expressing our preference. It is of interest to us for there to be a stable democratic government in Turkey; a government that will be able to proceed with reforms, because unfortunately there are phenomena which…

Mr. V. Paikos: When you say ‘be able to proceed with reforms’, you are implicitly referring to Mr. Erdogan, are you not?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I am implicitly referring to Mr. Erdogan, because Mr. Erdogan is committed at the moment in this direction, but I imagine that the country’s commitments vis-a-vis the European Union are commitments on the part of the country and not of any single government.

Mr. V. Paikos: A few days ago, Mr. Christofias, a candidate for the Presidency of the Republic of Cyprus, said that it would be a disaster if Mr. Erdogan didn’t win or something along those lines, I don’t remember his exact wording. It seems, therefore, that we are all looking to Mr. Erdogan, where we see more hope…

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Look, the Erdogan government has sent certain signals, in the sense that they have stated their views on Turkey’s European future. They have made certain efforts for internal reforms, which have of course been slowing down over the past year, but, in any event, their will has been noted. We are far from having a European Turkey on our borders, but in any case there is such an intention.

I am officially stating that Greece has no interference in Turkish elections, nor are we stating our preferences. We are simply saying that what we hope for and truly long for is for there not to be any problems – particularly relating to extremism, terrorism – and for the elections to be carried out smoothly.

Mr. V. Paikos: So that we have normality afterwards. We have a pre-election scene in Cyprus too, but of course Greece cannot take a stance on that issue either, but I would like to ask the following: Why are there three such candidacies for the first time? Are there better prospects opening up, in your view, in the direction of resolving the Cyprus issue?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I believe that every pre-election period has a positive and a negative element. The positive element is that, without a doubt, in one way or another, the issues that concern societies are tabled – and of course the Cyprus issue and the reunification of the island are the foremost issues concerning Cyprus. The down side is that things heat up significantly, providing fertile ground for rabble-rousing in a pre-election period.

I see a window of opportunity, and I hope that in 2008, when the election process has been completed, when there is a stable government in Cyprus, a stable government in Turkey – there’s no doubt regarding Greece – that there will potential from there on in.

Mr. V. Paikos: A favourable state of affairs for better progress.

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I don’t think we can expect anything spectacular this year – what we need to prepare, and prepare well. Greece has one advantage: it cooperates with all the political forces in Cyprus. So there is a common objective, and cooperation is considered a given in every direction.

Mr. V. Paikos: Madam Minister, we spoke some days ago with Mr. Christofias and today we will talk to Mr. Kasoulidis – he complained, not to us in particular, but he complained about some odd scenarios that have him and Kasoulidis involved  in American plans; scenarios in the Athens press that get back to Nicosia – I assume you are monitoring them . . .

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Look, I think this sort of thing is impermissible. Democracy has been established for many years now, both in our country and in Cyprus. At some point we will have to stop putting out conspiracy theories, despite conspiracies being our national sport, Mr. Paikos. I think its shameful that the patriotism of Cyprus’s Presidential candidates – who all have a long history – is being called into question by anyone.

Mr. V. Paikos: Let’s move on to the third issue I wanted to ask you about: FYROM. We know the story with the Ambassador, Ms. Grosomanidou. You said the day before yesterday, at the Cabinet meeting, that Greece will never allow this country to join NATO under the name “Macedonia”. You haven’t said whether you would allow it to join under the name FYROM.

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I have said something else. I have said that for a country to join NATO, there is a European line of thinking, not the line of thinking supported, allow me to say, early in the 1990s, which was based in the past. My thinking looks to tomorrow. And this government want to build in the Balkans; to help build a European Balkans that is stable and developed. For this to happen, certain basic principles need to be followed, one of which is, without a doubt, the principle of good neighbourly relations.

Mr. V. Paikos: I agree that all of this – a little vague, allow me to day, but also correct – is true, but . . .

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I’m giving you a broad outline because diplomacy is never a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’. It is a very complex process. It would be very easy for me to come out with grandiloquent statements today – statements that in all likelihood would make me the top Athens MP in the upcoming elections . . .

Mr. V. Paikos: You’ll get elected anyway . . .

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: No, don’t say that. I want the votes of all the Athenians who listen to what I have to say. But what is important is, in the long term, to have achieved what we think is right. And what we believe is right is that we need a name that is mutually acceptable to both peoples.

Mr. V. Paikos: Okay, we want that. Isn’t it provided for in the interim accord that FYROM can join international organizations under the name FYROM? So that means that we have no latitude for blocking it.

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: No, that’s not the case, because the interim accord doesn’t provide for that alone. It is an accord that also provides for actions that must not be taken; actions that serve irredentist reasoning. An interim agreement isn’t honoured just where it’s to one’s advantage. It is honoured as a whole. Let me just tell you this, Mr. Paikos: In Greece, whenever we talk about foreign policy, unfortunately we get carried away, and instead of talking calmly and soberly, the discussion becomes heated – mainly here at home.

I think that what is needed is absolute composure and calm regarding this issue. I have often said that this government will never allow the Skopje issue to become a domestic political issue – we paid a very high price for that. By the same token, we will defend our view resolutely. Nothing is random – not even that US foreign policy has come out and said frankly to our collocutors in Skopje that they have to come to an agreement with Greece. The EU has said this as well. Three or four years ago, this wasn’t stated as categorically.

Mr. V. Paikos: You say that the government won’t allow it, but it isn’t exclusively in the hands of the government. And I wanted to ask you whether you fear this issue’s rising high on the agenda in these elections.

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I’ve said before that it takes two to tango. Which means that I, for one, do not intend to join in. I have a great responsibility and I have a strong sense of my responsibility. And I know that every superfluous word spoken for the sake of domestic consumption can have a substantial cost tomorrow. And we mustn’t allow this.

Mr. V. Paikos: You’re right. Before I thank you, yesterday we saw on the Euro-barometer that European citizens are saying they would like a European anthem, a European flag. I wanted to ask you, is it perhaps the case in the end that the European leaders, all of you, are a little behind even the thoughts of Europe’s citizens, based on the decisions of the recent Council?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Greece wanted a European anthem. Greece wanted a European flag. Greece wanted these symbols, and if we made the concession, we did it so we could come to an agreement and take a step forward when we had reached an impasse. We preserved the substance, however.

Mr. V. Paikos: But wasn’t this compromise based on a minimum? So minimum, in fact, that perhaps the whole thing is foundering.

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: No, it isn’t foundering, because the intergovernmental conference is starting and will move ahead through October. Yesterday, I had a long talk with my Portuguese counterpart, and we will move ahead as far as we can, hoping that we don’t meet with any surprises . . .

Mr. V. Paikos: Surprises from where?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: From Poland, for instance. Surprises that might make things difficult. I have hopes, Mr. Paikos, but the path of the 27 is not an easy one.

Mr. V. Paikos: Because there are 27, right?

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Precisely. What is important is that we all realize that if the 27 don’t make a go of it, those who want to move ahead will. And that is now clear.

Mr. V. Paikos: But the necessary institutions have to be established . . .

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: There are already institutions – enhanced cooperation already exists as an institution. And, as you know, it is implemented, for example, in the case of the Eurozone. But we all have to realize that what we want is for all 27 to move ahead together.

Mr. V. Paikos: But if we can’t move ahead, those of us who want to . . . Madam Minister, you sound optimistic about Europe – I’m glad and I share your optimism. Thank you very much.

Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I fight every day for this Europe, because I believe in it.

Mr. V. Paikos: Thank you very much.